Overcoming and Thriving with OCD with Kevin Crispin

Episode 043 — Overcoming & Thriving with OCD with Kevin Crispin

OCD is often misunderstood—reduced to jokes about being “organized” or “particular”—when the reality can be relentless, exhausting, and deeply isolating. In this episode of Overcoming Anything, host Anne Vryonides sits down with Kevin Crispin to talk about what OCD actually feels like from the inside, how obsessive thoughts attach to fear with a terrifying sense of certainty, and what it takes to keep moving forward when your mind won’t stop.

Kevin Crispin is a mental health advocate, writer, speaker, and host of the podcast Behind Beautiful Things. With honesty, humor, and heart, Kevin shares his personal experience with OCD—rumination, panic attacks, magical thinking, shame, and the constant internal storm—while also offering hope, tools, and language that helps listeners feel less alone.

Key Takeaways
• OCD is more about obsessions than “being neat”: it’s the relentless rumination and certainty attached to fear
• You can’t “think” your way out of emotional pain—healing comes from acceptance, tools, and learning a new response
• You are not your thoughts: thoughts and emotions are not reality, and they will pass

Timestamps
• 00:00 — Introduction: OCD as a real mental health battle (not a stereotype)
• 02:10 — Kevin’s mantra: “I know it looks like I’m movin’, but I’m standin’ still.”
• 05:00 — What OCD feels like from the inside: fear, certainty, and the mind spiraling
• 10:00 — Obsessions vs compulsions: why “pop culture OCD” misses the point
• 13:30 — Rumination: how the scary thought becomes the one your brain won’t release
• 18:00 — “What if?” and certainty: why reassurance never fully fixes it
• 22:00 — Why it’s so hard to explain OCD (and the shame that keeps it private)
• 27:00 — Why “preparing” doesn’t always help: when rumination consumes the bandwidth
• 30:00 — What helps: reading, writing, exercise, and learning to accept the anxiety
• 35:00 — OCD and numbers: magical thinking, rituals, and why certain numbers feel “unsafe”
• 41:00 — Can OCD thoughts stop? Or is it learning a new response?
• 45:00 — The exhaustion factor: fatigue, sleep, and why everything gets worse without rest
• 48:30 — Therapy and medication: CBT, exposure work, and finding the right support
• 54:00 — What people misunderstand: OCD isn’t “one thing”—it can touch everything
• 58:00 — Supporting someone with OCD: patience, redirection, and holding space without judgment
• 01:03:00 — What OCD tries to steal: presence, vulnerability, and self-forgiveness
• 01:07:00 — What OCD can build: empathy, nuance, and the “big empathy muscle”
• 01:10:00 — Recommended books + why Kevin values Stoicism and deep nonfiction
• 01:13:00 — The truth Kevin wants you to remember: “You’re not your thoughts.”

Connect with Kevin Crispin
• Kevin’s website: https://kevincrispin.com | Instagram  | Facebook
• Podcast: Behind Beautiful Things (new episodes every Tuesday)
• Podcast website: https://sadtimespodcast.com

Resources
• Stoic philosophy (for learning what you can control vs. what you can’t): Seneca, Marcus Aurelius
• Robert Caro (for understanding power and human behavior): The Power Broker and The Years of Lyndon Johnson series
• Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace, https://a.co/d/000bUwgQ 

If this episode helped you, share it with someone who’s battling intrusive thoughts, living with OCD, or loving someone who struggles in ways they can’t fully explain. You’re not alone—and you’re not your thoughts. I’ll see you next time on Overcoming Anything.
 ❤️ Anne

Disclaimer
The content of this episode is for informational and inspirational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional therapy, diagnosis, legal, or medical care.

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Transcript

Speaker 0:00

Welcome to Overcoming Anything, the podcast where we dive deep into stories of resilience, transformation, and growth. I'm your host, Anne Vryonides, and today we have an incredible guest who's gonna talk about overcoming and thriving with OCD. Today's conversation's for anyone who's ever felt trapped in their own mind, and for people who love someone who struggles in ways that they may not fully understand. So we're talking about OCD, obsessive contol- pulsive disorder, not as a stereotype or throwaway phrase, but as a real and often exhausting mental health battle. So we may not understand really what other people are going through. And Kevin Crispin, who is a mental health advocate, writer, speaker, and host of the podcast Behind Beautiful Things, is gonna use honesty, humor, and heart to help people feel less alone, and he shares his journey of overcoming OCD with us. So welcome to the show, Kevin.

Speaker 2 0:51

Hey, thank you so much for having me. How are you?

Speaker 0:54

I'm doing excellent. I love this. The, I get so excited- Yeah and I just really thrive talking to amazing people and just learning more about other people and their gifts and their wisdom to share with the listeners, so I'm, love it. Yeah, I,

Speaker 2 1:08

I feel the same way on my show, Behind Beautiful Things. I have a new guest every week, and it's just a gift. And to be able to hear people's stories and to understand people better, ther- therefore understanding myself better, so on and so forth, building what I call building the big empathy muscle.

Speaker 1:22

Yes. Oh, I love that. I wish everybody could build that empathy muscle. Because I feel like so many times, people look at social media and they're like, Oh, so-and-so has the perfect life," or, Oh, they have all this money. Oh, they must be so happy." But I personally believe we all have our struggles. We all have challenges that we're going through, and sometimes when we reach out to people for support, just having that empathy and that understanding, not that they have to solve our problem, but just to really hold space for us, is amazing.

Speaker 2 1:51

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1:52

Awesome. Before we dive in, I always love to ask, what's one quote or mantra that keeps you going in tough times?

Speaker 2 1:58

Ooh, one quote or mantra that keeps me going, in tough times. Wow. A lot of Dylan quotes are going through my head. I'm gonna say one that doesn't sound like it's, a positive, but it's the best descriptor of me, which is, "I know it looks like I'm movin', but I'm standin' still." I love that line, and I think it's a great way to describe what OCD is like for people. And that's just a Bob Dylan line that came to mind.

Speaker 2:21

Perfect. I love it. So for someone who doesn't have OCD, how would you describe what it feels like from the inside and from your brain?

Speaker 2 2:29

It feels awful. It feels like your brain is this omnivorous creature who wants to consume you whole. It's, if your listeners have ever been worried about something, perhaps they find a place in their body where that worry sits. Often that worry sits in my stomach. I feel it in my stomach or I feel it here in the front of my head. And with OCD, i- so let's break it down. So obsessive compulsive disorder. A lot of people will say things like, "Oh, I'm OCD about folders," or, "I'm OCD about the dishes." I call that pop culture OCD. Actual OCD is more about the obsessions than it is the compulsions, at least for people who are lucky like myself, who are able to live a day-to-day life. They're not consumed with, having to do things over and over again. I do things over and over again, but to a minimum degree, and I'm able to go throughout, out the day. But when that anxiety comes, when the obsessions come, like when I was a kid, this is a really weird one, but I saw like a TV movie where somebody died in the electric chair when I was like 11 maybe. And I then obsessed over it. I thought I was going to die in the electric chair, and I couldn't get that out of my head. I was convinced of it. There's a thing about these obsessive thought- thoughts, is that they have certainty attached to them. Oh. And you try to talk yourself out of them. "Kevin, you're 11. You're playing kickball. Get over yourself.", But you can't, because it's these, thoughts that come in and they spiral, and then they speed up and speed up, often referred to as rumination. And so what I would do is I would be, I don't know, in a classroom, and I would be watching the teacher or, doing whatever, and in my mind it's going 1,000 miles per hour, "Oh, God, I hope I don't die in the electric chair. Is it gonna hurt? What am I gonna do? I'm gonna get framed." All these things are just going through my mind. And people could look over at me and maybe I look normal, but it's very roiling, very overwhelming. It, again, it's like my brain wants to eat all of me.

Speaker 4:09

Wow. That must have been really challenging for you until you really understood your brain and how it worked, because you must have been, scared and, "Oh my gosh, all these thoughts are taking over." And then I guess how Is OCD sometimes connected to ADHD because you're obsessing maybe about a thought, that you're not really present and paying attention? Or is that often misdiagnosed, do you know?

Speaker 2 4:33

That I don't know. Now, I've been diagnosed with ADHD. It seems to me that that- I think everybody in my generation has been diagnosed with that. I don't know. So I don't know what the connection would be there. I think that's a good point that the, these thoughts, they come rapid fire. Think about, as a listener or yourself, think about just a moment, like closing your eyes, and think about all the thoughts that shoot through your head in any given moment. Did I close the door? I gotta pick up the laundry. What am I gonna have for dinner tonight? I really like that book I just finished. This is all going through there.

Speaker 5:02

Right.

Speaker 2 5:02

And OCD seems to, grab the scary ones, boom, stops them, and the thing that is a problem is you try to stop the thought, and really what you're doing is you're allowing that thought to just stop and stay and hang out with you. As I was saying a moment ago, with all those thoughts going through your head, it's not like right now, 10 seconds later or whatever it is, I'm still thinking about the laundry. That went, phew, that went by. But as a kid, I was like, "Gotta do my math homework, gotta do this. Electric chair. Stop." And now I'm going to focus on that and obsess over that because I'm so It creates such an emotion of fear inside of me that I want that emotion to go away, and I'll do almost anything to get it to go away, which is where compulsions come in. Compulsions are often done to alleviate the anxiety from the thoughts if that Does that make sense?

Speaker 5:43

Yes. So what you were talking about, like I'm afraid I'm gonna die in the electric chair, and when that starts going again and again, that thought in your head, then what would you do or how do you alleviate that thought?

Speaker 2 5:54

When I was a kid, I, I didn't know exactly what to do. What I One of the weird things I would do, right around the time that I thought I was gonna die in the electric chair or whatever, I had just gotten over another obsession, which was kidnapping. Okay? I had a dream, I think it was in fifth grade, I had a dream I was kidnapped, and then for weeks, if not months, I was so afraid I was gonna be kidnapped. I would, crawl under the windows. Now, I grew up in this tiny town. Nobody was going to kidnap me, but I was consumed whole with it. And then, my babysitter would say, "Kevin, what are you doing? Why are you crawling?" And then you feel a lot of shame- 'cause you're like, "How am I supposed to explain to them that I'm afraid I'm gonna be kidnapped?" They're gonna stare at me a- as if I had three heads, I think is the saying. And I So then you have to say, Oh..." You can either play it off Oh, nothing. Just playing a game," or, "Oh, I'm afraid I'm gonna be kidnapped," and then that has follow-up questions where you have to explain. I understand that right now as we stand here, I don't have a fear of being kidnapped. It's in the abstract that it could happen, and I can't get my mind off of the could. Does that make sense?

Speaker 6:50

Yes.

Speaker 2 6:50

And but the reason I brought up the Sorry to interrupt. The reason I brought up the kidnapping is- I would like, that would dissipate. I wouldn't worry about that when I had a new worry. So like I'd be worrying about the electric chair, and I'd be thinking to myself, "Why can't I just worry, that I was gonna be kidnapped?" I know that's not gonna happen, right? And then maybe the electric chair thing would die down, and the kidnapping thing would come back. And then it'd be like, "Why can't I just worry that, I'm gonna die in the electric chair? That's not gonna happen. Why do I have to focus on this?" And then it, on and on.

Speaker 7:15

So when you, find something, let's say for example you're gonna be kidnapped- is that like a situation of trauma, of like intense emotion that you experience that like locks it in? And then is it locked in so then you almost have I guess I wanna say maybe like a library of a few things that are like fearful for you? And then if there's an experience in your everyday life that might resemble that emotion, then it pulls from that library like, Oh, I'm out walking down the street. Maybe I'll get kidnapped." Or maybe, I don't know, someone gets upset at you or your boss is yelling at you, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, what if I go to the electric chair?" Whatever. "What if they accuse me of stealing something?" Is that how that works?

Speaker 2 7:56

What if is are two very important words.

Speaker 7:59

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 7:59

In years of therapy, with OCD there's a lot of need for affirmation. Like I'm worried that this is going to happen. Let, I'll try to do something that's a little more relatable. I think we've all been, in an office or wherever, and a boss has come in and said, "Hey Kevin, can you just come in my office and talk to me for a second?" Th- a lot of people will go, That's it. I'm fired." And then all of a sudden in your brain, it, you went from I'm type to, I'm now seeing myself packing a box, walking out of the office. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? What if I get fired? So what if is a big one. What if this happens? What if that happens? And I had a therapist who years ago said something to me that res- really used to frustrate me in the moment, but she's exactly right. I'd be like, "What if this happens?" And she'd pause and she'd go, You'll deal with it." And I'd be like, "No, but... But that's right. I'll deal with it." So it's worrying about things that are about to happen, feeling that constant blanket of fear and certainty that it comes over you. For anybody who's listening, if you've been afraid of something and how afraid you are, and it's like everyday life it wants to paralyze you and stop you from moving because you're so caught up in this what if scenario.

Speaker 9:01

Okay. So would you find yourself overpreparing for things so you could minimize the what ifs? Is

Speaker 2 9:08

that- do you mean, the- Can you give me an example of what you mean?

Speaker 9:10

Sure. Let's say, for example, you're going on a trip to, South America, and you're like, "What if I get a stomach bug? So I'm gonna take this medication for this. If I get a cold, I'm gonna take this," because you're afraid that you might get, a virus or pick something up in a foreign country, and then you just take all these actions to prevent the what-ifs from happening. Or is it more like you're just ruminating on the same thought?

Speaker 2 9:35

It's more the latter. Okay. I think there are a lot of people who struggle with the same thing who deal with it and quell the anxiety by becoming very prepared. I guess that I wish that I did that, but I'm too busy focusing on the thought and ruminating on the thought and wanting the thought and the emotional pain with that thought to stop. And for somebody who has OCD who may be listening, they understand what it is to not being able to stop thinking about something and all of the fear of the, negative consequences of that. And it won't it won't stop, and hence the obsessive. So I... Mine is more that I focus on the thought, which, thoughts and emotions are two different languages.

Speaker 10:13

Right.

Speaker 2 10:13

And I'll feel an emotion because of a thought I had, and then I'll try to think myself out of the emotion, but that doesn't work. It's it's too, it's like somebody speaking Polish and somebody speaking Russian. Maybe that's, th- those are probably pretty sim- Two different languages are talking to each other. And you, I've spent so much of my life trying to think my way out of emotional pain, but that's not possible. Does that make sense?

Speaker 10:34

Absolutely. So when you're in that moment- If you can't think your way out of it, what do you do?

Speaker 2 10:39

I try to continue to think my way out of it. In the past, that's what I've done. I like to joke that people say to me, Kevin, you can't think your way out of emotional pain." I'll say, "Yeah, I'm gonna keep trying." Which is what I continue to do because that's the pattern in my mind. So yeah.

Speaker 10:52

So does meditation help or maybe, listening to relaxing music, which slows down your mind and your body? Does that help?

Speaker 2 10:59

Those things help for sure. For me, reading helps a lot. Reading helps everything in my life. Writing helps. Writing, I often write, when I write, I tend to be figuring something out, whether I realize it or not. One of the w- fun things about writing is you start writing and then about thinking you're gonna write about one thing, and then about two paragraphs in, you're writing about something completely diffent- different. And you're like, "Where the, where did that come from?" So yeah. I- I, the problem is you have to accept the emotional pain and the fear, and it's such an unnatural feeling. It's such a fight or flight thing. "Oh, that's a saber-toothed tiger, I have to run." Your brain is still doing that stuff, and you have to say, I feel this anxiety. I'm safe. Nothing's going to happen to me," and you just have to accept it, and that's hard because who wants to feel that way? A lot of people don't, and so they try to think their way out of it or you do compulsions to try to get it to go away, when really it's just about saying, This is a thought. It's like a cloud in the sky. It's gonna pass by, and I just have to accept that this is how I'm feeling." I read, I listen to music run. I hate running, but running helps my brain. Go to the gym, that type of thing. Those are all things that, that I do.

Speaker 12:03

So do you find that it's connected to, your nervous system, where, You mentioned you're in fight or flight, so are you regulating your nervous system, or is that, the running and the exercising that helps keep your nervous system on kind of a calm level?

Speaker 2 12:19

That those things help keep it on a calm level. The fight or flight the way that I'll describe it is I brought up the saber-toothed tiger. Our ancestors, caveman ancestors way forever ago, you know- they had brains that were like, Must be aware of danger." And the problem is we're continuing to evolve, but our brain still goes to that, I guess lizard brain is the way to say it, first before it goes to the logical brain. So first it's "Must protect myself," and people are looking at you like, "What? Protect yourself from what?" Sorry. Yeah, it's just a lot, and it's hard. I hope I'm describing it well because maybe I sound crazy. Maybe I am crazy, I don't know. But the thinking is a symptom of trying to stop the pain.

Speaker 12:54

No, you're not crazy at all. This is- No, not

Speaker 2 12:56

at all. Yeah

Speaker 12:57

this is so interesting, so thank you for, my questions and, I hope they're not too overwhelming. I'm just trying to- to understand. So- I talk

Speaker 2 13:05

about this stuff all the time whether people like it or not, gosh darn it.

Speaker 13:08

Okay. So how can someone begin to overcome an obsession with numbers? They try to avoid number two when it feels so charged and consuming.

Speaker 2 13:16

I wish somebody would tell me how that works because, my number is 16.

Speaker 13:20

Okay.

Speaker 2 13:20

And I, I live in Chicago. I live in a big city, and I'll be walking along and I'll just be looking at license plates and adding them up. And if they add up to 16, it's Ah." If they add up to 13, that's very bad. I feel anxious and I wanna find other numbers. So- I don't know. It, I think a lot about it. I used to love math when I was a kid, and I think it, with numbers, you look at a license plate, it's not gonna change. Those numbers add up to what it is. That's what it is. And there's a comfort in knowing there's always an answer there. However, I further complicate it by saying, that's not 16," or, "Oh my goodness, that's 13. I need to find something." I'll often grab my phone and look at the time and be like, "Okay, that adds up to nine. That's okay. Moving on." It, it's really weird stuff like that. It's some sort of flaw or a rule. Magical thinking. Have you ever heard the term magical thinking?

Speaker 14:03

Yes, I have.

Speaker 2 14:04

It's a form of magical thinking that it's like you think in your mind, Oh, I'm nervous 'cause I, those numbers six and seven add up to 13. Oh, what, that's bad," as if your mathematical as if you adding numbers has any effect on the world. However, because of the magical thinking, you're like that's 13. That means something bad's gonna happen if I don't find another number, that adds up to something that's not 13." Okay. And that's just constant, unfortunately. It, as I'm walking along, I just see numbers and I add them up.

Speaker 14:32

Interesting.

Speaker 2 14:32

I used to always count letters in words. I still do. And if they may- made 16, good. If not, ugh, it, but I'll be, like, looking at a billboard if I'm driving and I'll look at the words and I'll break it down by, three, five, eight. Okay, 16, great. Things like that.

Speaker 14:45

Okay. So is it possible to permanently stop OCD thoughts, or is the real work learning how to respond to them in a different way?

Speaker 2 14:53

For me, my understanding is the latter. It's learning how to respond to them. I'm certainly not an expert. I'm just somebody who, has it. But I think that it's about understanding that these thoughts will occur and an emotional feeling will come with them, and that it's okay. You're safe, and you, there's nothing to fix. You're sitting right there where you are. I'm sitting right now in this room. I'm not going to be kidnapped. It's not something I worry about anymore, but I'm not gonna be kidnapped. I'm here. These are just thoughts. This is just an emotion, and it will pass. So I don't know how to stop the thoughts other than i- if you, meditating is a big one. As we said, exercising. These all help, but it doesn't alleviate it fully.

Speaker 15:30

Okay. So how do you deal with, fatigue? Because the mental, emotional, even the physical exhaustion that comes from battling your mind all day. So do you find that you're, exhausted by the end of the day and you- Yes sleep well? Yeah. I don't

Speaker 2 15:43

know about sleep well. Yeah, it- that's a very good point. Obsessing and, any of us who worry about something, that takes energy. Even though it's just thoughts, that's your body doing that, and that takes energy and it wears you out, and it adds to the whole complex suffering of the whole thing, 'cause you're like, "Please stop, please. Oh, please," and then you just get more and more exhausted. Yeah, I'm a big believer in sleep. That's If I don't get enough sleep, this is all very much worse. Okay so yeah, but yes, a lot of nights I'll get done with the day and I'll just be exhausted, and a lot of it will have to do with my brain not stopping.

Speaker 16:15

So when you got to the point where, this was so overwhelming and you mentioned that you went to therapy, is that something you recommend to people who are battling their mind and maybe not understanding how to control it? Or is there, medication that helps slow down the thoughts not that I'm advocating for medication, or, working with someone to retrain your brain, does that help? Or what suggestions would you have for someone who is just feeling so overwhelmed right now with their brain and not- knowing how to deal with it?

Speaker 2 16:41

With the caveat knowing that we live in a country where trying to get mental health assistance is often more expensive and not covered by insurance and how we're run by insurance companies, put that aside I highly recommend therapy. It's often used as there's cognitive behavioral therapy and then there's exposure therapy. Now, for people with OCD, exposure therapy is very difficult. So let's say that, I had a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad fear of flies. Exposure therapy will mean, you'll be in a room and you'll let a fly in and just you'll sit with it. And maybe that's not a good example, but i- it's something s- it's small. It's exposing you to what you're afraid of more and more so it takes away the danger. But going to a therapist is- 1,000% a good way to go, cause you can talk through these things. You can, going back to when I would crawl under the windows, the shame I would feel because Why aren't I normal? But you can talk through these things in therapy. As far as medication goes, with a doctor that often helps. I'm on just an heroic dose of Prozac. I just take a lot of Prozac. But it helps me, but that's me. It's different for everyone, and I've tried different medications, and some have worked better than others, and I've stuck with Prozac 'cause it works. But as far as medication goes, yes, there, there can be help. But definitely want to work with a doctor. But I think of all the things, first finding someone to talk to about it, that n- that you can share your fears with and not feel judged and unpack them. And then once you unpack the fears, you then, with the therapist, will learn tools on how to deal with them.

Speaker 18:04

Excellent. That's good advice. So what do people without OCD often misunderstand about how draining and disruptive it can be?

Speaker 2 18:13

I think what they misunderstand is what we've been talking about, is how it's such an internal roiling storm of fear and emotion. And so some people Like when I was a kid, I collected movies, VHS tapes, and I would, put them in line and make sure they were in line, and do that over and over again because it was something I could control, cause I couldn't control these terrible thoughts. So I think when people say, "I'm OCD about folders," or, "I'm OCD, I can't go to bed with a dish in the sink," respectfully, that's not really OCD. That's a particularity. With OCD, it's a constant thing. It's not just one thing in your life. People say, "I'm OCD about dishes," and I always go, "Oh, weird. I'm OCD about life," because it's constant. It's everything. And so I think it's What people don- is that somebody with OCD is suffering all of the time because they can't stop their brain most of the time.

Speaker 18:57

Wow. Yeah. That must be really challenging, that you just can't, switch it off.

Speaker 2 19:01

It can't Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. And then you become overwhelmed, and I've had about approximately, this is an approximation, 700 million panic attacks, and those panic attacks come when I become overwhelmed by this fear, by this emotion, and I'm so uncomfortable and it just comes out, and then I can't A lot of people that are think they're having a heart attack or, when they're having a panic attack, things of that nature. I I just become so overwhelmed by it, by the certainty, by the fear, by the emotion. Often sometimes I won't be able to I'll start stuttering- when I'm having a panic attack because, my brain is going too fast. And I'm just so afraid of even saying something, just speaking is, there's a vulnerability to that. So it's don't say anything, don't, I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 19:37

So for people who don't have OCD, how can they have more patience, compassion, and understanding for those who live with it? And if you went into a panic attack, how would you want someone around you to support you and just maybe be there for you?

Speaker 2 19:53

Some- I've learned years and years ago, I've gotten pretty good at helping people when they're in panic attacks. The best thing to do is let's say that you, you were having a panic attack about you maybe, that you left the stove on, something like that, okay? But you can't immediately get to your stove to just make sure. And so what I would do is I'd start asking you other questions. I'd be like, Okay, who's your favorite Beatle?" And then you'll tell me, and then we'll talk about that. It's about talking to somebody about not what they're obsessed about, but about anything else to help redirect their thoughts. And as far as patience goes it's really hard because a, when you see somebody suffering or having a panic attack or see somebody who's clearly worried about something and can't stop, you want to fix it. For somebody you love, you want to take that pain away, and sometimes it's just about holding space with somebody, and being there and telling them it's gonna be okay, or having conversations, as I said, where you talk about something totally different to help redirect the mind. So it, it's a patience of understanding too that even though you don't feel their pain, understanding that they're feeling that pain and then helping them understand that it will pass.

Speaker 20:54

Great advice. So what has thriving with OCD taught you about resilience, self-compassion, humor, and hope?

Speaker 2 21:02

Humor and self-compassion. Let's start with those things. I think that the only thing that makes sense 100% of the time in the world is kindness, but I think humor is right behind, I'd say like 98% of the time. I come from a family of people who make very dark jokes, dark humor, dry humor, and that's how we deal with pain. I make jokes about stuff all day, every day. I make jokes about as much as I can because I can't take myself that serily- seriously. So finding the humor and the absurdity of this. What? I'm 11 and I think I'm gonna die in the electric chair? So like- I did a one-man show a number of years back, and I have a friend who's an animator, and I was a hu- I still am a huge Cubs fan. And, he, he did all these drawings, and one of them was, like, me, little me in a Cubs uniform in an electric chair. Making light of that craziness. And then self-compassion is a huge one. Being patient with yourself, being understanding that, hey, right now, I got overwhelmed by something or I wasn't able to accomplish what I wanted to accomplish, and that's okay. I'm gonna try again. Nobody's perfect. In OCD you want so many things to be perfect because then you feel like you're safe. And we've got to be kind to ourselves, and I think we're not taught that in a lot of ways. We're told from when we're little, Don't be selfish. I think there's two forms of selfishness. There's what I call Ayn Rand selfishness," Eh, I like my building, and if you don't like it, I'm gonna blow it up." Lame. Give me. I want what I want." But then there's actual mental health selfishness, which is about treating oneself with kindness and compassion, and allowing oneself to understand that you're not perfect, and accepting yourself for who you are. Now, that is really hard, especially when you obviously have a roiling brain., But being kind, and something I say as a close to every episode of my show, Behind Beautiful Things, is, there's always room for kindness and grace. No matter the situation, there's always room for kindness and grace. And I think that goes almost double when we're talking about our own selves and how we treat ourselves and how we talk to ourselves internally.

Speaker 22:49

Yeah, so true. So true. We all have to be kinder, nicer, and more loving to ourselves- Yeah 'cause we're almost like from social media taught to beat ourselves up. Oh, we're not perfect, or we're not beautiful. We don't have blonde hair. We're not super skinny. We're not this. We're not that. We're not that. Instead of just really loving ourselves for who we are. What has OCD tried to steal from your life, and how have you fought to take that back?

Speaker 2 23:14

What has OCD tried to steal? My life. I guess it it's taken away presence. It's taken away the ability to be vulnerable with people in a situation when I wish I could be. It's taken away my... At times, it's taken away my ability to forgive myself. And these are all very important things. It's, people... It's taken a lot away, I guess I should say. It, and- But it's also the way my brain works with OCD, with numbers, with these things also contributes to a good, certain good things about me. I have a very good memory, although, oh boy, memory can be a real jerk. But I have very good memory. I'm able to... I have a good attention to detail, so that's the same part of my brain. So it, it has taken a lot away from me in that I often am... I know it looks like I'm moving, but I'm standing still. I might just be walking along, but in my brain I'm, like, stuck. I'm stuck on something and I can't unstick myself. It's taken away a lot of, of moments and presence and being with people. And it's taken away a lot of years of being nice to myself. I wouldn't do it. These are all pretty important things and it's... they're taken away on small and large ways by OCD o- on a daily basis.

Speaker 24:15

And how has it impacted your relationships, and what do you wish that those people close to you would really just give you that, that safety that maybe you need?

Speaker 2 24:25

It has made certain relationships very difficult and challenging. There's a Joan Didion line where she says, we tell ourselves stories in order to live." Unfortunately with OCD, you often are telling yourself stories of your own doom or downfall. And I think it's, it- people understanding that your brain might work differently than them, that does not mean that you don't love them, that you don't want to be present with them. But understanding that people with OCD, your brain is gonna conjure up some things that maybe somebody walking down the street normally would not think of. And being patient with that person and saying, "Okay," if they do open up to you and say, "I'm afraid of this weird thing"- saying, Got it." Saying that you understand. Not reacting "What? You're afraid of what? Why would you... What?" So be accepting, even if it seems strange to you. It's very hard for somebody with OCD to, at least in my experience, to open up about what they're afraid of. Because again, it goes back to that shame and it's like, how am I gonna explain to somebody? Like I always say, in sixth grade was I gonna turn to a kid in the library and go, "Hey, do you also, worry that you're gonna die in the electric chair one day?" That kid would've stared at me like what?" And then you'd be like, Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. I'll... Sorry." And then you just beat yourself up for even bringing it up. And then you're like, "Why am I worrying about these things?" Because you are. Maybe there isn't a why. So yeah, it's affected relationships because the same way that I'm afraid that, whatever, I was gonna be kidnapped, I'm also afraid that something's not gonna work out, and so I worry that, oh, this relationship will end because of X, Y, Z, when that, that really, that's just manufactured in the mind. And so it, OCD sometimes keeps you from... I keep using the word presence, but it keeps you from being in the present moment with somebody, and it keeps you, it's very hard to accept what people are telling you, because you're so certain that this wrong thing or bad thing is gonna happen, that you can't, quote-unquote, "be talked out of it." Does that make sense?

Speaker 26:05

Yes, absolutely. So how has having OCD been a benefit? 'Cause I know you said you're, like, extremely focused. I think you have, a very high level of intelligence, and it's just maybe the challenge is just mastering the thoughts. But you seem very intelligent. So how has this been a blessing for you?

Speaker 2 26:25

How has it been a blessing? I, the things that I said. I have a good memory. I'm good with numbers to a degree. I'm able to pay attention maybe in different ways than people who don't have OCD. It has taught me a lot. Knowing, when you start to understand your own suffering, whether it be a- OCD or whatever it may be, in that understanding of that suffering, you can understand other people's suffering. And going back to empathy, and sh- hosting my show, Behind Beautiful Things, like you were saying,, you love doing this. I love doing it because these people tell me their stories.

Speaker 26:53

Right.

Speaker 2 26:54

And they're vulnerable and they're brave, and they're telling me their stories. And I'm hearing these stories, and I'm thinking to myself, Wow, that makes me think of this, and this. Now I understand this better." This is one of the reasons I love reading fiction. Reading in general, but if you read fiction, you unders- you're seeing inside of people and why they behave, and then you're able to look at the real world and start to discern certain things about why people behave. And it will help you understand that we're all suffering, and that often, I believe that people overwhelmingly are good. I think often when we hurt each other, it's because we're afraid and we have bad reactions to things. So understanding that everybody else is afraid. Just because they're not afraid that they're gonna be kidnapped doesn't mean they're not struggling. So I've understood through immense suffering through the years that other people also suffer in their own way, and to be patient with them as I hope they're patient with me.

Speaker 27:38

You said that in such a beautiful way. Thank you. Oh,

Speaker 2 27:40

wow. Thank you.

Speaker 27:41

Yeah. So is there a book that helped you on your journey that you could recommend to our listeners?

Speaker 2 27:46

Oh, boy. So I don't do a lot of self-help. Now, I think a lot of... And maybe that's not what you're asking, but I'll say I think if you, go to, Barnes Noble maybe- oh, by the way, it's called self-transformation now, whatever the hell that means. Self-help is really just, 83% warmed over stoicism. It's just go read the stoics Seneca Marcus Aurelius, so on and so forth. Those are those... Any stoicism text is really helpful. It just helps you be like, "I'm gonna accept what I can control and what I can't control," something that simple. As far as in general, there's this author named Robert Caro. He only has six books. Four of them are about LBJ, the former President of the United States. But I always say to people, "If you want to know why..." They're all nonfiction. They're all giant. They're all wonderful. The, one of them's not. Anyway, I always say, "If you want to understand why people behave the way they do, read Robert Caro." The Power Broker or The Years of Lyndon Johnson. He does such a wonderful job in getting into the understanding of power, getting into understanding of why people do what they do, and so I, I often recommend. And they're just a joy to read. But, those are some things that, that pop into my mind. Also, for whatever reason, it is not... I don't know, there's some sort of stigma attached to it. I don't understand it. But I love the book Infinite Jest. A lot of people roll their eyes at the book Infinite Jest. It took me a long time to get through it. I think it was five attempts, then I got through it. I've read it two times, and it comforts me. It taught me so much about how kindness, empathy are much more important than intelligence. And that's, any number of things. It's the funniest book I've ever read. It's the saddest book I've ever read. So Infinite Jest also comes to mind.

Speaker 29:14

Excellent. Great. I'll link those down below in show notes,

Speaker 2 29:16

oh, great.

Speaker 29:17

Perfect. So for the person listening right now who feels trapped in obsessive thoughts or exhausted by the fight in their own mind, what is one truth you want them to remember today?

Speaker 2 29:27

You're not your thoughts.

Speaker 29:28

Yes.

Speaker 2 29:29

And people will be like, no, I'm thinking them." But you're not your thoughts. Thoughts are just thoughts. They're not reality. Thoughts trigger emotions. Emotions are just emotions. They're not reality. And I've, all my life, because of my worry and my, obsessing, I've had a real problem with emotional regulation. If I get overwhelmed, as I was saying earlier, 'cause I can't, I don't wanna feel it anymore, so it's like- Telling people that they're not their thoughts, that it's okay that they're afraid of strange things, and that if they're patient with themselves and realize that they too, just like anybody else are gonna struggle, but you're gonna come out the other side. Nothing, you're not your thoughts, and the moment that you live in is a moment you can en- endure until the next one comes, until the next one comes, until the next one comes. So being patient with yourself and understanding that I'm worried about this, one, doesn't make you bad, and two, doesn't mean that's reality.

Speaker 30:12

Yes. Wow, this was such a powerful interview. Thank you for being so brave, for being so vulnerable and sharing your thoughts with us. So I'm very honored that you were just so open. So where can people connect with you, and what's the name of your podcast and your social media channels so they can reach out?

Speaker 2 30:30

Sure. Thank you. It's, Behind Beautiful Things is the name of the show. It's wherever podcasts magically appear on your devices. We release every Tuesday. Each week it's a new guest who tells stories from their lives. And, often they're difficult stories, and the whole goal of the show is if any problems arise with these stories, we don't judge or solve or try to diagnose them. We just allow the story to be told so that someone somewhere listening can hear something and say, Oh, I thought I was the only one that felt that way," thus helping people feel less alone. So Behind Beautiful Things. It used to be called Sad Times. I- it's, sadtimespodcast.com is the, website. We're coming in on 200 episodes. Just incredible stories- Wow come out every Tuesday. And again, the whole goal is to help people feel less alone. So Behind Beautiful Things is the name of the show. Behind- behindbeautifulthingspodcast on Instagram. You can go to my speaker website, which is just my name, kevincrispin.com. That's what I got for you.

Speaker 31:23

Awesome. Awesome. So amazing. Thank you so much, Kevin, for helping someone feel less alone today with this interview. So we look forward to connecting with you online, and I appreciate your time. And if you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who is struggling right now. And we'll see you next time on Overcoming Anything.